November 29, 2007

What Do You Think?

Can a good Muslim be a good American? This question was sent to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Koran, 2:256)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the
five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians orJews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad,and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is never referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

*Many people assume that the God of the Bible and the God of the Koran are the same God—just with different names. However, up until the seventh century when Mohammed announced Allah as the only one true God, "Allah" was the name of the widely worshipped moon god throughout ancient Mesopotamia.

Allah is not a further revelation of the God of the Bible, but declared as the one and only greatest of the celestial pre-Islam gods of Arabia.

Islam is not only Arabia's major religion, but also the fastest growing religion in the world. In the United States there are now over 6 million Muslims, more than thirty times the number of a decade ago.

‘‘In Arabia, the sun god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. The moon god was Allah! The crescent or half moon is in Arabic 'hilal' which is a perfect anagram of Allah." [Alfred Buillaume, Islam (london: penguinbooks,1954)]

According to the Quran, the Holy War, called Jihad, is in reality a holy campaign which uses the help of the Quran to bring about a spiritual revolution in the world, so I think it would be fair in saying that, in recognizing the Muslims' allegiance to their faith and to their Quran, that they, indeed, cannot be good Muslims and good Americans at the same time.

I think that most do not realize that whether we want to believe it or not, as circumstances now stand we are in a holy war, and it is going to be allowed to escalate as we stand around being politically correct.


GUYK said...

Islam is not compatable with freedom..but then of course no organized religion is compatable with secular government..note the religious right wing in our government doing its best to take complete control in order to enforce its ideas of morality.

Anonymous said...

I would agree with the conclusion you reached, and for the same reasons.

Jan said...

guyk..but their goal is not to kill every individual on the face of the earth who does not follow their particular brand of religion.

Jan said...

hermit..I don't think it is a difficult conclusion to come to, considering the facts.

rockync said...

I'm afraid I just can't support this "all muslims are terrorists" campaign. I have muslim acquaintances who do not treat me as an enemy and who denounce the use of violence in the name of Allah.
Like many ancient cultures including Greeks and Romans, they once worshipped gods, but in modern islam, the name Allah is Arabic for God and muslims acknowledge that thier God is the same God as the Jews' and Christians' God.
I do not ascribe to organized religion, finding it burdensome and dogmatic. I prefer my spirituality to be personal and singular, but I respect the rights of others to find peace in their souls in any way they see fit UNTIL it interferes with the rights of others.
That includes fanatic "Christians" who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors and rabid Islamic extremists who believe they are on some "holy mission" to murder all those who don't bend to their will.
But to lump all Christians and all Muslims into these fanatical fringe groups just doesn't seem like a logical conclusion and is more like a knee-jerk reaction to fear.
Jan, I submit my humble opinion knowing that we are in disagreement, but I do so with nothing but love and respect.

Jan said...

"Jan, I submit my humble opinion knowing that we are in disagreement, but I do so with nothing but love and respect"

rockync..and I accept your opinion in the same spirit it is given, but I don't totally agree. I know that there are many with different views.

I didn't think that I was implying that all Muslims are terrorists-- the question posed to the person who spent 20 years in Saudia Arabia was whether or not a good Muslim could be a good American inferring of course that a good Muslim follows all the tenets of Islam.

I draw my conclusions from the things that I read from their own teachings, and I in no way, believe that they believe that their God is the same God worshipped by Christians.

There has been much harm done in the name of God in all the religions of the world, so that much we do agree on.

"but I respect the rights of others to find peace in their souls in any way they see fit UNTIL it interferes with the rights of others."


Jan said...

I meant to include this headline in the previous comment:

Sudan protesters seek U.K. teacher's execution
Convicted of insulting Islam, she's been moved from prison for her safety.

The entire story can be found on

Facts such as these don't help to change my opinion of the religion of Islam, in general.

rockync said...

I've been keeping up on the story of the teacher also and unfortunately, most countires in that part of the world are riddled with extremist groups. And I agree they give Islam a bad name.
Back to the theme of can a good Muslim be a good American? I must point out that, like a good Mormon,a good muslim abides by the law in America that they have only one wife.
Like a good Amish who keeps himself apart from the world so does a good muslim. Although the Amish do not "make friends" outside their circle, they are not considered "bad citizens."
Many Muslims who are not American born came here to escape the kind of extremism that has spawned these terrorists groups. Like most Americans or their ancestors, these people came here seeking peace and the right to live and worship as they see fit.
Personally, I'd have no problem having a Muslim neighbor, but I can tell you I'd have a real problem with a Satanist or a klansman moving in next door!

Jan said...

"I've been keeping up on the story of the teacher also and unfortunately, most countires in that part of the world are riddled with extremist groups. And I agree they give Islam a bad name."

And I wonder how much longer it will be before it gets that extreme in this country? Already, we are changing things in our own way of doing things, so that they will not be offended, and we are making many concessions to their Islamic way of doing things so that their civil rights are not violated...maybe, they do come here seeking peace and the right to live and worship as they see fit, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the peace and rights of the citizens of this country.

That is my opinion, and I don't think that it will change;however, you are entitled to yours. :)

sheoflittlebrain said...

I think it's interesting to see what is happening in European countries where the Fundamentalist Muslim population has increased in a larger proportion than it has thus far in our country.In Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book Infidel, she explains how Government in the Netherlands allowed Fundamentalist Muslims to form communities that included their own schools and churches (temples?). She was instrumental in exposing the high death rate of pubesent and pre-pubescent girls in these communities.
She also wrote the television spots that exposed treatment of Muslim women and for which the director Theo Van Gogh was murdered. Her life is still in jeopardy and it will be forever.
There's the difference.
Yes, we are a tolerant society and we welcome all faiths..Madonna can defile Christ on a stage in America without fearing for her life.
But are Fundamentalist Muslims the same as American Christian?
I think in this case, a fundamental Muslim is a "good" Muslim and threfore, because of the tenants of his religeon, cannot be a good American. There is no room for tolerance for those who reliously follow the tennents of this religion.

Jan said...

sheoflittlebrain..I agree, and the kind of thing going on in the European countries, and other places, will soon be happening here if we passively stand by and allow it, as they did.

The Fundamentalist Muslim may be in America, but they are not good Americans.

I think that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a very courageous woman.

rockync said...

Ladies,I'm not sure what consessions we are making to Islam besides the right for them to practice their religion without fear. It is still against the law to have multiple wives and to beat, mutilate or otherwise maim another human being regardless of whether they are related or not.
How intolerant can we as a nation afford to be without undermining our own constitution? I would recall for you a very dark time in our own history when Japanese-Americans, some who were born here, were removed from their homes and lives and interred for the duration of the war simply because their ancestors came from a country that was now at war with America. They also lived in their own communities, practiced a religion that was not Christian (Buddism)and kept their own culture alive. Did that make them "bad" Americans?

Jan said...

rockync..maybe, it's just me, but I don't think anyone was saying that's what should be done concerning Muslims. I think the point trying to be made, is that we, as citizens of this country, should not have to give up ANY of our rights, or have customs and rituals forced down our throats to appease others of ANY religion or culture, or anything else.

There are rituals in the Christian faith, in certain denominations, such as "snake handling" but it would go over like a lead balloon for those practitiioners to demand that snakes be made readily available to them, in public places, so that they could practice their belifs. The same cannot be said for Muslims who are demanding public foot-washing facilities to accomodate them. That may seem like an idiotic comparison, but it makes the point.

The point you made about the Japanese living in their own communities, practicing Buddism, and keeping their own culture alive is a good one;however I have never heard, or read anything about that particular culture or religion advocating the taking of lives of those who believe otherwise, nor of demanding that this country make special allowances for them to do so as the advocates of Islam do.

I am not saying that all Muslims are bad, but I am saying that I don't think that we should kow-tow to them for the sake of political correctness. Islam is not a religion of peace. Period.

sheoflittlebrain said...

Rockync, I'm wondering if you get it. For a Fundamentalist Muslim to freely practice his religeon in America, he would have to convert or kill you and me and Jan. That's actually the point. If he did not do this, he would no longer be a Fundamentalist... so I wonder if you are assuming that all Muslims who come to America would happily give up their basic religeous tenants, as laid out in the Quran, when they get here?

On the disassociated topic of Japanese internment.. what happened to the Japanese in World War II in America seems totally unjust today, and I agree with those who say their property should have been restored after the war.... at the time it was a decision made by a President who had the best interest of the country and the majority of citizens at heart, after the shock of having 2350 American servicemen and 68 Hawaiian civilians killed, and 1178 injured by the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor by Japan, he seemed not to trust the Japanese too much.
It seems to me that some have reached adulthood in our country thinking that life should always be fair to everyone. However, it's one of the measures of growing up to acknowledge that simply can't always be true.
And, I believe the measure of the quality of life in America was formed by the decisions of the Governmental leaders who proceeded us. It allows us the luxury of pointing a critical finger at those same figures now.
And I do wonder if you realize we almost lost that war and wonder if you've given any thought to what life in America might be now if we had..we were not invulnerable then and we are not invulnerable now.

rockync said...

Jan said, "have never heard, or read anything about that particular culture or religion advocating the taking of lives of those who believe otherwise." We were at war with that "culture" at the time and they were talking about invading this country and becoming masters of the universe. Can't get much more hostile than that.

She,of course I "get it" but I can't say I've ever been hunted down by a Muslim, nor have I heard of any spate of Muslim attacks. Perhaps it's you who doesn't "get it." The kind of fanatical extremist you're talking about does not seek to live in the US. Those that come here by and large came to live in peace.
And before you start throwing 9/11 around, let's be clear that Al Quaeda members are part of that extremist group and are not supported by all muslims.
If you want to lump all Muslims in the same basket then you have to be ready to lump white supremists, KKK and posse comitas in the same basket as all other Christians.
Does that help clarify my point?
We did not "almost" lose WWII. We were taken by surprise at Pearl Harbor,but our carriers were not at Pearl and since our naval forces remained far superior even with the loss at Pearl Harbor, all Japan really did was stir the hornets' nest.
My parents lived through WWII in Europe, they were imprisoned after the war by communists because they were helping people escape. They risked their very lives to come to America and raise their children in freedom, so, no, I've never taken MY freedom foregranted. The war tore my family apart and I never got to grow up with aunts, uncles, cousins and grandparents. I wonder if YOU can imagine what that's like?
If you want to know what I give thought to and what I realize, just ask. I find when one has reached a certain age of enlightenment one realizes that there are those who will resort to a condescending attitude rather than engage in open and honest debate because in their immaturity, they just can't accept that others have different views.
I accept that others have differing opinions from me but I try to be respectful during a debate without questioning their veracity and I take exception to your condescending attitude, She.

Jan said...

"Jan said, "have never heard, or read anything about that particular culture or religion advocating the taking of lives of those who believe otherwise." We were at war with that "culture" at the time and they were talking about invading this country and becoming masters of the universe. Can't get much more hostile than that."

rockync..when I said that, I was speaking of those here, in this country at the time. I think that some things are being misunderstood, or there is a breakdown in communication, somehow..

The question asked in the post was whether or not a good Muslim can be a good American, and again, IF they follow the tenets of Islam, the answer must be, "No."

rockync said...

I understand the post, and my point is that I think it may not be an accurate measure of what makes a "good American."
Fundamentalist Christians believe abortion to be a sin and forbidden by God, but the law of the land allows for abortion. By this religious measure, if a Christian supports the law does that make them a bad Christian and by the same token if a Christian denounces the law, does that make them a bad American? Does it have to be all or nothing at all?
I have never done an in depth study of the Koran, but perhaps it's time. Maybe doing so would change my opinion, I'll let you know but it may take me a while. I don't like making judgements based on the observations of another without at least corroborating the facts as presented. I'm not questioning your source since I believe this is someone who you hold in high regard, but I really do think the Muslims they were exposed to in Saudi Arabia are not like most of the Muslims here.
My contention is that no matter what their belief system, they can be "good", law-abiding citizens. And I don't believe the measure of a good American should be based on a person's religion.
We aren't ever going to agree on this one but I do respect your viewpoint. You ask questions, you voice opinions and most importantly, you make room for others to express their opinions. That is enough for me to think of you as a "good" American without needing to know your religious affiliation.
Peace and Love,always. ;)

Jan said...

"I have never done an in depth study of the Koran, but perhaps it's time."

rockync..perhaps so. I have been trying to find out all I could about it for several years...ever since I first saw the word "Q'ran" in reference to the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I never base what I believe on the opinon of others, but form my own opinions based on what I am able to find out for myself.

You are right..we may never agree on this subject, but we can agree to disagree, and still have mutual respect for each other.

Peace and love to you, too. :)

sheoflittlebrain said...

rockny, I didn't mean to seem condensending and I appologize.
I realize that there are Muslims who don't practice their religeon as fanatically as the terriorists, but the question here was regarding a "good" Muslim and I looked at good as Fundamentalist.

You're right in that we should all read the Ouran!

Jan said...

sheoflittlebrain..that was the question posed, initially, and you were right in your understanding of the question.
I know that this is a sensitive subject, but a very serious one, and your imput is appreciated.

rockync said...

Thank you, She, I probably need to apologize for being so sensitive. I just had the feeling that I was being blown off for having a different opinion.
I guess my real contention is should religion be used as a measure for a "good" American? I'm sure there are Muslims who are not good Americans, and Christians, and atheists, you get my drift.
If they are abiding by the laws of our land, no matter what their ideology, do we have the right to label them good or bad?
Like I posted above, the law allows abortion and there are those who are fundamentally opposed to it. I would not necessarily consider those people "bad" Americans; not until they bomb a clinic or murder a doctor--all of which is against the law.
Having been brought up in a family that was "different", I guess I'm more tolerant of the "difference" in others.
That being said, I'm no liberal push over. If a specific person or group shows themselves to be untrustworthy, then let the law and its punishments stand. And, yes we are the great melting pot in America. So many different colors, customs, languages and religions, but what makes us Americans is our unity under the constitution. If someone truly wants to be an American, then they must agree to respect and abide by the tenets of our society.
I actually know several Muslims who are kind, well spoken and hard working. I don't think it would be fair to consider them in the same lump as Al Queda.
I did mean what I said, though. Although I've got two jobs going and class and family stuff going on, once the holidays are over, I'm going to start seriously researching the Koran and Islam. Increasing knowledge can never hurt.